I actually read one of your posts vallo. I don't treat new people with disrespect. I treat assholes with disrespect.
most are post 99, only a handful i am still in contact from release. you would be surprised at how many of those guys..when it comes down to it still care, don't we Seph? and some couldnt give a fuck either, goes both ways. if they play jk its usually among themselfs, whats the point in really coming to an empty igz, or irc full of potheads as you put it none of them know and really want to know, yea.. they might play Jk for shlts and giggles..not going to log into igz and irc just to do that tho when they have there buds on contact. you mention model, he about? i dont see him on msn for 18 months or so now? if your reading...hit me up, jihad owns you. 
btw phe, how many times do you have to edit your posts? oh nm your canadian
I just kinda skimmed through this and i saw somone mentioning how crappy IGZ is and JK needs somthing better, Has anyone treid gamespy? i use it all the time and Jk is on gamspy but the room is always empty. I inquired about y we dont use gamespy and somone said somthing about people thought u had to pay. Game spy is free, u can pay however for addtional things but they are just kinda pointless.
Phelans post make perfect sense and I am in agreement with him on his views. IRC is not a good interactive community for JK, something like IGZ is. IGZ has some serious issues that certain users experienced; for example i was disconnected nearly every idk..5 hours. Being idle was near impossible while I was away from the computer (which is often).
The issues with IGZ should be evaluated on a professional level. I cannot seriously think that there are 10,000 users playing various games there and they are having trouble as well. I see us JK players complaining, but perhaps the issues are not as deep as we think. We need to speak with Nick (at the least) and get some questions answered.
IGZ is a great way to establish an interactive community. If they can get it to work correctly. Phelan raises extremely important points when he mentions the NEW users that IGZ brought us! This is near impossible with IRC! No matter how much IRC promoting people will do, new users will not walk into the community by accident..
Mask; I also disagree about people not wanting to stay around. Any JK player that was an established member of the JK community (regardless of skill) had good friends there, and if anything they would return to just shoot the shit and idle like old times and possibly play an occassional game.
It is an absolute mockery to Jedi Knights history that someone like DarkJester walks into IRC and a) new schoolers call him a newbie b) he tries to find a game and he hears echos
We should be so lucky that someone like that actually tries to play with us...and we cant even give him a good game.
This comes down to users being active. Which has nothing to do with people playing JK at all. On IGZ more and more people just stopping idling and the numbers kept dropping. Is this because of the community or IGZ errors? Personally I think its IGZ errors because on countless occassions I was the only user in the lobby....
If the community is large enough and people idle, it will therefore attract other users to remain, this cycle will continue until the community grows very large. I have a SS of 30 people on IGZ, a week later the lobby was a ghost town. I remained there the entire time. In conclusion I probably smell bad and scared everyone away.
someone make me a JKbot for nf sabs
I'd have a blast if they could warp and stuff and be able to hang with me
I dont think you really understand what I said vallo.
Glad chronos did though.
I'm saying JK is not like other games; which is probably the reason so many people are still wanting to keep it alive after 11 years. We can't work it like q3 and other various server based games. Those games die out once something bigger and better come out. They only work because of their massive player base.
I know you weren't really around for the old days. But just take it from us, if both me and wodz are saying it. It's a fact(We have about as much in common as Malcolm X and the leader of the KKK). The interactive community is what gave this game the success it had, and what distinguishes it in the minds of all who played it. And IRC/servers can not facilitate that. I know it's border line absurd to insinuate that a simple lobby concept and being able to host games is what makes it special. But that's the truth. I played CS and SC competitively. I can play better games if I like. I honestly don't enjoy any game more than the other. But what's endearing about this game, is the community. Which is unique. And 11 years after it's release I'm writing some long ass posts and editing them about 50 times in a star wars forum trying to make it fly again. And that is why any of those older players would come back. Without that community we can't get people to stay. I will play a game of cs or sc, and then put the disc away again for maybe another 2 years. Without THAT interactive community that is how any other older player will treat JK. And to be frank, there is sort of an ineffable quality to this game that I don't think any of us can put a finger on, but it is definitely rooted in the community. I think it's commendable that you guys are trying to create all these launchers and do whatever else. But there is only one way to save this game.
Like wodz said, talk to the guy, get some answers. If you guys put 1/10th of the effort in to helping grow IGZ and resolve some of it's issues, that you put in to your IRC drama's and falling in to the stereotype of our generation of needing to have the latest and greatest, the biggest and flashiest. I think we would have a 50 strong community on the zone right now. It was at 30 and growing stronger by the day. Then people just gave up for whatever reason. I personally had no experience with the errors that are being spoken of other than the occasional client crash; but hell the msn gaming zone was the same so it didn't bother me, sometimes on ETG my irc would disconnect... big fucking deal....
You know what it's beginning to look like to me. All these people are in their own little corners figuring out their own way to be the saviour of the community. Like they want to be written up as the guy who saved jk on wodz's JK history page or something. Seems more like ego rather than distaste for the idea of utilizing IGZ to me.... This community never had, and will never need a shepherd. Leave your ego's at the door and lets just hang out on the zone and be star wars nerds again.
Like I said - we need no innovation, just blatantly obvious observations.
We have a tried and true method for making this community work right under our noses and everyone is sitting there trying to reinvent the wheel.
Ya I talk to model once in a while mask.
Sometimes I have after thoughts, mask. I'm sort of a scatter brain; from booze or concussions or both. Otherwise I'd probably make like 20 posts before I got everything out. <--- example
Yes I understand perfectly, you don't seem to understand that we are saying IRC and JKL are nowhere near a substitute for the zone. It lacks whatever that quality is the zone has to support and grow this community. And people won't stick around. I don't know how you can't comprehend what I have written.
translation: this community will not grow beyond what it is right now unless we have the zone.
Apparently you have all these people offering resources to grow JK again. So why not try opening a dialogue with IGZ to work in conjunction with them towards a mutual goal? Like I said, if you put 1/10th the effort in to finding a way to utilize a tool that is in line 100% with what we need that you put in to doing everything you can to not use IGZ we would all be there right now. People only say can't when they don't want to put in the effort.
If your goal is to make cool stuff and servers that keep stats. You're on the right track; I will shut up. But I thought the goal was to grow this community. In order to grow a community you need to cultivate it, and in order to do that you need to exploit it's distinguishing features. Your cool upgrades and servers and stats are not doing that. The only thing that will do it is IGZ. Like I said, I dust off CS or SC for a game or two every two years. I keep coming back here looking for the community. Without the community you will just get some occasional people dusting the game off every 2 years or so. People come back to this game because of nostalgia, that is the primary reason. That is the bottom line - it's not a debate. I'm just pointing out the reality of the situation. You HAVE to end up using IGZ if you want it to grow beyond some level makers and pot heads.
Seriously, reread my posts and read wodz's last post, because you didn't get the point at all. You seem to be skimming through my posts and not actually comprehending my message.
But I guess it's falling on deaf ears. Since you're all about the latest and greatest I doubt you'll ever recognize the fact that JK is an anomaly already. People are passionate about it because of what it was. And you are trying to make it in to something it's not. It's really too bad, with more objective people this game doesn't have to be hanging on by a thread. It would literally be thriving.
And as for the comment about you not being around for the old days; I had just assumed because you didn't know what settings or what level to use for a bgj nf tournament. My apologies.
And to be honest, I don't know if I've been lucky or something with experiencing errors. But I think all the people who complain about a client crash here and there are just a bunch of whiny bitches. The positives FAR OUTWEIGHED the negatives on IGZ. I can't say the same for IRC...
That's too bad Andrew.
And vallo I'm sorry to hear that. I never said 100's of people would flock perhaps you could quote me. I can't honestly say where it would go. What I do know though is the user base would continue to grow. To what number I have no idea. But Right now I see the same burnouts I saw 3 years ago when I started periodically checking in to this community. Except that there are a few less of them now. With IGZ it was yielding positive results, an unexpected and shocking number of 1st time players, and a impressive influx of older players that were amazed to find the zone. And I'm not just talking about the 1st month. The week leading up to the nf sabs tourney there were times where there was 15-20 people on at a time. I would have a few games a night for nearly a week straight, I NEVER could find that many games in the 3 years I've been visiting IRC. Had I not fucked up my pc I'd still be playing.
Like I said it's great you're doing something, I commend you on your effort. I'm just letting you know what will yield the most positive results towards reaching your goal.
We can't have the success of the old days again, perhaps you could quote me on that as well. But you know what? we had something pretty damn close. And I saw more new faces in a month than I have in 3 years of IRC. It's too bad you can't connect the dots. I don't see a reason we need to make compromises for a few burnouts when we saw a handful of players who picked up JK MP for the first time in their life. Also a bunch of old timers come out who actually wanted to play jk, and it wasn't just ctf. Seems to me that a community of people who actually gamed was being created. And obviously a pretty damn good attempt to create the zone was made. So it's not like it's unrealistic to think it's possible... I don't know what you are referring to as unrealistic. I played a few games of f3 or f4 in nar loading terminal. I even played a game of f2 sabers. We had NEW players coming in who just wanted to play the game. I'm sorry but I haven't played settings like those since 98. We were getting fresh life injected in to this community for a while. It was pretty cool...
It's also too bad you're still not getting it, bigger doesn't mean better. That is a faulty american perspective... JK is great because of the way it was. Nothing will ever be as amazing as that game. And we love it so much because of it's unique characteristics. If you actually want to be successful, you need to exploit your strengths.
I'm not trying to debate with you, this isn't a rebuttal. I'm just telling you flat out what will help you reach your goal. And with a working zone and players continually going to IGZ, beef and his bitches and even jkhub will eventually follow with their tail between their legs. You shouldn't be so worried about conforming and making compromises, and if you want to reach your goals you need to do what would best grow the community. You choose to disagree with me, and that's your perogative. I'm just stating facts.
I get that IGZ is busted. Until it is fixed though we ain't growing.
what did you call me? 
Phelan, I feel a need to respond to your posts which are riddled with nonsensical idiocy and machinations of defeatism. You make some valid points, but you are off the mark on a lot of things:
Quote:
I know it's border line absurd to insinuate that a simple lobby concept and being able to host games is what makes it special. But that's the truth. I played CS and SC competitively. I can play better games if I like. I honestly don't enjoy any game more than the other. But what's endearing about this game, is the community.
Exactly. Counterstrike and Starcraft are simple launch and join games. Community is what makes it special.
You know what it's beginning to look like to me. All these people are in their own little corners figuring out their own way to be the saviour of the community. Like they want to be written up as the guy who saved jk on wodz's JK history page or something. Seems more like ego rather than distaste for the idea of utilizing IGZ to me.... This community never had, and will never need a shepherd. Leave your ego's at the door and lets just hang out on the zone and be star wars nerds again.
Hahah Phelan so you are basically insulting all those making an effort and actually taking the time to give ideas and input into this rejuvenation project? You seem to have forgotten what I have originally posted, please refer to the initial few posts I made. I need as much input as possible and then i'll put together a business plan based on all these discussions and distribute it to all concerned so they can evaluate it. The aforementioned quotation is pointless and nonsensical. "Lets just hang out on the zone and be star wars nerds again" Yeah if it was that simple then everyone wouldn't have so much input on this subject would they?
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Like I said - we need no innovation, just blatantly obvious observations.
We have a tried and true method for making this community work right under our noses and everyone is sitting there trying to reinvent the wheel.
Obviously we do Phelan. There have been numerous rejuvelation attempts in the past. All have failed. So logic dictates that innovation and proper marketing/planning is needed to make it work this time.
Quote:
Apparently you have all these people offering resources to grow JK again. So why not try opening a dialogue with IGZ to work in conjunction with them towards a mutual goal?
Perhaps an avenue worth investigating. But I would imagine they would focus their resources on their primary user base, Age of Epires/AOE2 etc. Phelan have you used JKLauncher or had any experience of it at all? I think i'll ask Zeq to post a complete breakdown of its specifications and features, that may help to clear up a few things. I'll keep the IGZ idea on board though.
Quote:
People come back to this game because of nostalgia, that is the primary reason. That is the bottom line - it's not a debate. I'm just pointing out the reality of the situation. You HAVE to end up using IGZ if you want it to grow beyond some level makers and pot heads.
Again you fail to differentiate between the fact that CS and SC are "plug and play" games where you click " search for games" and join a random game. The key issue with your observation? THERE ARE NO CHAT ROOMS, THE GAMES MENTIONED ARE "PLUG AND PLAY" JKL will have chatroom(s) and IRC is obviously already a staging ground for the current community. People will need help setting up JK regardless and this will help to integrate into the community, as will tournament organizations etc.
Your point about IGZ being the only option shows your close-minded views and your psychological resistance to change.
Quote:
Seriously, reread my posts and read wodz's last post, because you didn't get the point at all. You seem to be skimming through my posts and not actually comprehending my message.
Pot caling the kettle black. You have obviously not read nor understood my posts. Please re-read them.
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It's really too bad, with more objective people this game doesn't have to be hanging on by a thread. It would literally be thriving.
🙄
Quote:
And to be honest, I don't know if I've been lucky or something with experiencing errors. But I think all the people who complain about a client crash here and there are just a bunch of whiny puppies. The positives FAR OUTWEIGHED the negatives on IGZ. I can't say the same for IRC...
You know what? If IGZ didn't have the erorrs and actually ran JK without causing major client issues it wouldn't be a problem . The people are a bunch of whiny puppies? Phelan WTF? You are saying that getting an error message every 5mins and the IGZ client crashing when you exit a game of JK amonst other things is being whiny? Would you buy a table with 3 legs that could not balance? No you would not, and that's why people don't use IGZ. IGZ is the table with 3 legs, it just needs another leg (errors fixed etc.) and it would be fine. But it's useless unforutnately and if you have looked into JKL at all you will see why it's a more than viable alternative.
Quote:
Except that there are a few less of them now. With IGZ it was yielding positive results, an unexpected and shocking number of 1st time players, and a impressive influx of older players that were amazed to find the zone. And I'm not just talking about the 1st month. The week leading up to the nf sabs tourney there were times where there was 15-20 people on at a time. I would have a few games a night for nearly a week straight, I NEVER could find that many games in the 3 years I've been visiting IRC. Had I not farked up my pc I'd still be playing.
Do you know about advertising and marketing strategies? Do you know how to attract new customers? By your comments obviously not Phelan. Don't worry, i'm going to present a full advertising and marketing plan included in the "business plan" i'll be designing for the rejuvenation.
I'm not trying to debate with you, this isn't a rebuttal. I'm just telling you flat out what will help you reach your goal. And with a working zone and players continually going to IGZ, beef and his puppies and even jkhub will eventually follow with their tail between their legs. You shouldn't be so worried about conforming and making compromises, and if you want to reach your goals you need to do what would best grow the community. You choose to disagree with me, and that's your perogative. I'm just stating facts.
You seem to have some kind of hate for Beefy and mysterious " power bases" that have been mentioned numerous time in your previous posts. Coming out with comments like " people just want to look the best" and " Beef and his cronies". Your responses make SOME valid points, but your negativity is deconstructive to the ideological aims of this rejuvination. And also, you are not stating facts Phelan, you are making observations.
Your resistance to change is quite alarming.
Once i get more input in this thead i'll put together my "business plan" with the help of a few others.
I've not bothered to check for errors/typos so if there are any in the above then apologies.
Guys, im serious when I say this
Pull a Microsoft..
Lets forge a team of people who fit the job and do the following.
1) Team A will research the business aspects of IGZ and their legal status. This will help us understand what type of business IGZ is running and how it can be exploited.
2) Team B will hack (not harm) IGZ and review their server and client status. We need to "borrow" their code and redesign it for our own needs. If they have copyrites and bylaws then we need to simply change their original code structure and claim ours is a homage to Zone..
3) Team A will research technical specifications of what it will take to run IGZ for JK. Since we will not need to host such a large system, but only JK related games, our hosting needs will be vastly smaller. Online hosting would be the best option.
4) Team Endowment will financially fund the project and will eventually open a donations section to help with the project.
Imagine the applications of it.. a self sustaining interactive JK community. Make it so user friendly that even the noobs can navigate it nicely. I know you guys can design websites, so ripoff the IGZ site design and take note from all of our community resources and create something superior
If IGZ doesn't work, why wouldn't we just re-do it to OUR liking.. ? We can hire coders and or whomever we need for this..
This is what Microsoft does. They didnt buy Apple out, they ripped them off.
This is business. And I am a businessman. Rip them off.
Vallo - Phelan has been trying to simply say that IRC is not good enough as the main lobby for JK. He never said we should simply move back to IGZ, he is saying we need to find a way to get something better. He was clear in his first post..
JK.com has been held and they are waiting for site bids. We could buy this site if we wanted it.
JediKnight.com is being used as some crappy star wars page, same thing we could offer a bid for the url.
Creating a universal interactive community site doesn't mean that all other JK resource sites need to die out. Make a 1 stop shop. Any important massassi or jkhub files would be referenced on the main site as links to the corresponding files on those websites, rather than attempting to push all files into one master database. This allows JKHUB and others to continue doing their pointless work. They can in-turn work with the main site and let them know about file updates, and the site will in-turn post resource links to those files.
I have tons of ideas regarding the primary site. First we need to secure community software, the site should come second. Promoting should come far last after a significant test period has been completed.
Tim why do you even bother? You are making a negative attempt to partake in the community that you have been part of since you were 9.
You're not impressing anyone.
You obviously don't know much about business because advertising and promotion are the ABSOLUTE LAST steps in developing a product. And judging from the disparity in peoples view on which vision we should proceed with that suits the goals of "growing" the community - We are OBVIOUSLY in the very early stages of this process.
You sound like a 1st year marketing student that thinks marketing is all about promotions. I hope you passed r3d!
I'm pretty sure my point was exactly that. SC and CS have crappy communities with very little interaction. CS was supported in IRC, as well as Q3, UT, etc. And SC was supported by battle.net; which to me is a similar feel to IRC. Those communities are about 1/100th as interactive as the JK community was.
I'm glad you further proved my point by pointing out the fact all past rejuvenation attempts have failed. I am going to make a simple observation, the one I've been telling you to make since my first post. THEY WERE NOT THE ZONE.
You guys fail to realize that every old player that comes here after miraculously finding this site says the same thing. And the consensus is "I miss the zone". I'm sure you all can do math; put 1 + 1 together please!
I really refuse to concede the point that only the objective and visionary can see my point for the simple reason that wodz agrees with me! I can't believe what I'm saying isn't plain as day.
But it's fairly obvious to me that the current core of the community who will be the "doers" are not at all receptive to this idea and lack the perspective to see the significance of what I'm saying - let alone acknowledge the observations I made. I suppose this will be my last post on the issue.
Good luck guys. I hope it all works out.
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