[Locked] Which was the best sabers clan?

As the creator of all things and ruler of the universe and maker of this poll...

I dont know, I always considered VDS regular, it had a few elite players, but never saw anything special on that clan, just regular sorry
I would add it to the poll, but I think I cant edit it anymore

Morthe drives a good point home.. even though you guys thought you were the greatest for a few years.. a lot of it was psychological pride.. you naturally think your clan is the best because it is your clan.. that is a lot of the reasoning behind my pride in Prince yes as well lol. That is why.. many American's believe America is so dang superior to everyone else.. egocentricism.. a big word meaning.. a belief that the whole world revolves around oneself, which can be generalized into one's country, one's clan, one's religion etc.

Prince's top saberists were always far from middle of the road,.the other people were always far from newbies they were experienced JK players.. maybe not striving passionately at self-glorification at becoming ultra elite at sabers,. but remaining dedicated to Prince instead enjoying JK for what it was a game...
but the fact remains
VDS wouldn't of been half the clan that it was if it wasn't for Prince.
..
Prince always found a way of replacing the top saberists that left those before VDS,. those to VDS,.. and after VDS .. no one really left..
..
and I at least never gave in regardless of set backs until there was no challenge left and the real world awaited me.
..

all in good fun my friend England, all in good fun.

Yack...Why are you still on this thing about Prince being the best.It was no where near the best.When people did start getting good,they left Prince.OR whatever clan they may have been in to join the next fad clan.Hell,I even joined tonnes of them in my ladder days.I remember when I was known as the "best" for awhile.I never lost for probably a few months.Every tourny I joined I won easily.But You know what,After I stopped taking JK so seriously,I got my ass handed to me.I just found better stuff to do with my time.But back to this topic.Prince was nowhere near "elite".Name who was "elite" who actually stayed in it after they got good?As far as I'm concerned.I left way before I got "elite",England left.Zodiac left.Don't remember who else may have left.

I think you have to look at the solution to this debate logically. A clan with saberists that have played for 7 years logically, would be superior to a clan with saberists of two years playing time. Therefore, my opinion is that VDS and Prince didnt have members that had the experience of a lets say, AP. By the time AP rolled around, people like FaKe and NoVa had been playing for 7 years.

hey good point relinquish,.. but I'd say its a balance of weighing that with Skill in JK.. I think you are uninformed in the fact Prince played JK throughout JK's entirety: http://www.ericyacko.com/prince/history.html
is evidence of the fact.

Towards Nova that is really what I'm debating the point relinquish makes,. history factor involved with Prince. Here is the givens: the average VDS members for the most part had higher skill than the average Prince at any given time. However.. the best Prince could always almost match the best VDS. Prince wasn't a saber only clan.. thus why many of our members weren't "Saber Elite" and lowered our average skill level.
Furthermore, Prince has history.. a history at being good for all if not elite at sabers that existed before VDS's time and continued past VDS's time of prevalence on the zone.

and to address your other comment:
Many good saberists did remain loyal to Prince and did not clan hop us. they were just not all big names amongst the JK "elite world" . You were just never with Prince long enough to reconize it, A lot of these Prince were Old School Prince that were around in 1998 - 2000 before the emergence of VDS some of them being: Beanbag, Thrawn_ (Kueller), Poison (Ocarina), Blight (Vlcan), Yevaud, Luke, Ogion, Mirager, Shadow_, Shazman, Slash, SaGe, Java, Deetrix, Oconnor, ( a lot of these guys stayed in Prince till they stopped playing JK)

Prince that were new but remained steadfast till I retired: 2000-2002
Blessed (__Nimbus__), Ennudo, Ashes, Merc1, Jello, DashRem, Ares

I'd even say that for a large part Bartolo, Axion, and Oxide and maybe even England were loyal Prince members for a good 6-8 months or so
haha and Neo / Copyrite was in Prince for maybe the longest he was ever in a clan...
Zerocool was in Prince for around 2 years as he was my best friend in real life lol.. then he died *lmbo* (inside joke)
sorry if I forgot many from the list..

but what's it matter why do i care Nova,.. haha I don't know its just something to talk about,. .. we should dwell in the future however not the past. as I have a problem doing..

In conclusion and this is HOPEFULLY my final remark on the subject.. it really all depends on what you mean when you say best sabers clan.
That broad statement can be interpreted many ways.
I.E. (Best skills, best history, best legacy, or a combination of all the sorts)
I'd say all the clans on the list are up there on those categories,. as well as VDS., VDS may outweigh Prince in best skills but whose to say the rest, only opinion my friend only opinion.

I don't like to debate on these kind of posts but some stuff that's being posted here is quite amusing.

People start playing a game, and as time passes people get better and better. That is a fact that - as long as there is a somewhat large number of players and alot of competition going on. And boy, was there competition back then. I remember 3-4 tourneys every weekend + the Week of War matches at battlestats and that's not counting in the tourneys that used to pop up during the weeks. JK didn't have as many active players as in the beginning but the competition was excellent and people would do anything to be the best. Everyone's skill went up when DSL/Cable and Graphic Accelerators came out. Suddenly there wasn't really any margin left gamewise. People adapted with the new hardware and got really good for quite a long time. People moved on to other games as time passed by and tourneys were not running very often anymore. We obviously got worse and worse until we finally decided to give up JK. That's where the real sabering ends on zone.

You may think people who won CWT or whatever those tourneys were called were good but, and be honest, running around with 23 fps on dial-ups that couldn't even handle JK netcode and winning tourneys does not make you good. Ever tried playing JK on LAN?

Yack, sorry to say, being avarage and playing for a long time doesn't make you good either. I remember losing 7 or 8 duels during 1 year - none of those who beat me were princemembers and the best you could offer got smoked on a regular basis. The ones who managed to beat me down were all members of my own clan (VDS) except 2 guys fakenicking.

Talent decides the amount of time you have to practice to get good.
You do the calculations.

vanion that is very short sighted of you... to say the players from back in the day couldnt compete with new guys is bs... maybe the machines wernt up to par but the skill and the tactics definately were. there is a reason why aeron is hands down better than any ffo player that came after him, why jeb is argueably the best ff saberist ever, why a guy like genetix or dex absolutely dominated when they returned to jk with there new graphics cards and dsl. and you know what, the majority of us were running around with 40-60+ fps at some point before they quit jk... i really dont think you know too much what you are talking about cuz arent you the guy that said lonestarr played jk with a p3?

also yackman, if you want to lie to these people and tell them Prince was "elite" back in 98-99 please remember that im still around reading these boards... i know better than that. like i said in an earlier post in my day prince was your average run of the mill narbie clan, equivalent to a wolfpac or sykotic. and its like you said you haev a blind faith in your own clan, which if you actually believe the propoganda you are attempting to spread is why you would think this way. but never once did i meet a prince in a cwt, or rarely in ladder, and if i did he was usually one of those guys ranked 120th that i used as a stepping stone. when i would randomly join ffa games in nar any prince i did meet was severly overmatched. also please dont tell me you are trying to say prince played everything, because when i played ff sabs or nf guns games in nar with any prince, again they were severely overmatched(and it wasnt uncommon to see them using light side powers or lighning in an ff sabs game :). i am all for you being proud of your clan, i would be too if i started something in 97 and it was still alive today. but please gain some perspective and come down to reality.

but vanion you saying that a guy whos played for 7 years obviously has more skill than a guy that played for 2 years, is very very wrong. ive met guys who had lpayed since the game came out, yet they still didnt know what the always run feature in the settings was... and technically i started playing 8 years ago, so by your logic i should be better than you all. there are alot of guys who are better than me in the settings i played now. and for me in nf sabs, i hit my peak after about 6 months of hardcore no life gaming. when it started to become easy for me i stopped caring, and like nova said when you realize theres a world outside of jk your skills start to decline. in guns it took me about 6 months to reach my peak in that as well, before i stopped caring. so when you younger generation players happen to beat an older guy like myself... dont assume its because our skills have levelled off and you surpass us, because that is very ignorant to think so... its because we/they just didnt give a shit anymore.

You missed my point totally. I'm talking about sabers nf where packetloss and bad fps makes a huge difference, as you know? I do not know about the rest of the FF/whatever so I'd rather not say anything about it either. I can't find where I said that they couldn't compete with us either.

I can't give any credit to those players back then as they were playing a different game based on wether or not you dial-up was actually working and disabling 3d-accel to get less fps. They might have had potential but weren't around to show it. Competition and better hardware makes the skill go up and the skill back then was, sorry to say, not comparable to what it was at it's best. People get better and better not matter what you're doing. I don't know if you're familiar with Q3 dueling. Just check early DM6-demos versus ESWC 2005 Dm6-demos. That's the size of the gap between "oldschool" and sabers nf at it's best.

I know what i'm talking about when it comes to sabers nf and like i said i don't know about the FF/guns/sabers-side so i'd rather not comment on it except that these little tricks wouldn't help you a bit.

edit: 7 years better than 2 years.. what?

If you got TALENT you dont have to put so much TIME on practicing to get GOOD. Guess what happens when you're not that talented?

you said skill level raised with the new generation of computers, and woah are you saying people after good computers/dsl came out didnt find a way to cheat? cuz im pretty sure cheating was a much bigger problem after i quit then it was while i was playing. and i wil give you an nf sabs referance... ikikuras

Cheating is a whole different matter, and yeah, unfortuatly in the `newschool` (I hate that term) there were shit loads of cheats. I remember when I made a god-detector and busted half the ladder overnight - however, I digress...

I think that `oldschool` and `newschool` jk were such totally different games that its allmost impossible to compare the players. Like Van, I only ever played nf gaybers so I do not know if it was true of FF or not, but in nf gaybers your tactics changed 100% depending on if you were on a low spec PC with a 56k or on a decent spec PC with broardband.Simerly, the tactis you adopted changes based on if your oponend was on 56k and you were on broardband or vice-versa. However, the tactics differed so greatly that is is totally unfair or unreasonable to compare a player of the broardband ero to a player of the 56k era. In order to be at the top of the tree in either era took alot of skill and the guys at the top of the tree were undoubatly very good (or had alot of downloads from Clown).

However, on the Prince point... all im gunna say Yack is that when I joined Prince I was not half as good as I later got in VDS. Being given the oppertunity to play the VDS guys day in and day out made me realise how much I had to learn and it made me a `much` better player. Also, being in VDS gave me the oppertunity to play other `elite` (I hate that word too) players from other clans becasue they knew someone in VDS would give them a tough match whereas they wouldnt even bother to play 95% of Prince becasue it was a waste of their time. To give a point of refrence here, when I joined Prince I was not half the player I later was in VDS, but the week I joined there was a huge Prince only tourney with all your members in it... I beat every single member 3-0 all the way upto the finals, at which point I beat Zod 3-1 or something like that. Like me, he went on to become significantly better in VDS than in Prince.

As ive said, I am not having a go at Prince and you guys were a really good clan, the long standing members like you and Snoop were good guys and were good at the game, but the clan itself was `not` the best of the best. It was not even the best of the rest. It was a very good mid-level clan... there is no disrespect in that statment and there is nothing wrong with that. Hell, you guys out lasted just about everyone and that in itself is a huge achivment. However, that does not make and will never make Prince `elite`.

As I origonally said, clans liek VDS used Prince as a training ground, we used you guys to spot talent and then steal it. It worked well. There is no shame in that and I stand by that as the key point here.

...also, I have to add... OMG I MISSED CHAT WHORING ABOUT JK!

I'M SERIOUS.

Phelan, I do believe you are correct on everyone of your statements, yes I didn't want to say Prince was elite in 1999 and 1998.. and even for a lot of 2000.. the closer we came to the present the more elite we became.. Now.. what I do want to clarify.. is Prince wasn't newbie in 1999 / early 2000.. Prince in fact wasn't ever newbie.. maybe initial 3 months of it in 1997. 1998 / early 1999 we were the dominant clan at demo..
we were "Elite" at that.. now none of you were probally demo players for long,.. so you don't know what its like to transition from Demo JK to Full version.. Gunning in Full version was a whole different story.. take me for example.. (I was not even a "saberist" until I started full version, I was maybe the best / competing with some Prince for the best at everything in demo.. FF sabes, Nf Guns, you name it. take in mind this is bespin mining station only, and i'm talking specific rules no using "god like shield vest", or power boost)...
When that transition took place.. Our Elite players were instantly not far from newbies, especially at guns. Gunning oasis is different game than gunning bespin.
I switched almost completely to NF sabers, and thus did most of the clan.
We did have a few players that did manage to get decent at guns, FF and NF... probally most of the Prince you played Phelan were just saberists.. out for a good time lol:
Good Prince gunners: Nate1, Sonicpro (Ragepro), Beanbag, Apoc, Mikey, Karbon (iffy haha), Thrawn (Locoutus)
FF Players: Maniac, KAIOKEN, Blight (vlcan)
..
ya very few.. but still evident.. I really had no way of evaluating their skill cause I wasn't anywher near elite, but they gave me some decent screens.

Secondly,..England.. Snoop was a good guy yes.. to say he was good at JK.. don't lie haha. Thanks for the respect however,

Also, when you won your saber tournament Prince wasn't near its prime.. February 2000 ... the exact date, its on the trophy here: http://ericyacko.com/prince/history.html

I have the results from a newsletter I sent out long ago:
Saber Tournament Winners:
Winner of the Saber Tournament was Prince_England congragulations for his effort. He defeated a total of 5 Prince players to win the tournament. 2nd and 3rd places were given to Prince_Achvel 2nd place and Prince_Eugenius and Prince_Asheron 3rd place.

You are right however, you really didn't beat any great Prince.. Achvel was decent at best, ... Eugenius well.. I'm sure he was rusty.

Finally, I'm sure a few of our better saberists didn't even attend the tourny. Zodiac wasn't even in that one.. and I don't think Zodiac was even in Prince at that point in time...

When Zodiac won his tournament.... I was 2nd, Oxide was 3rd...
and to be honest I didn't want to win a Prince saber tournament. You can make the implication.
...

Your perspective and mine are just different that's all my friend. Ya, I'd say VDS was better skill wise.. but Prince was always a close 2nd.. at least after you left Prince for good... when you were in Prince early Feb 2000, I'd agree we weren't too great then. Just working our way up...I would classify us as Overall Middle of the road saberists..until mid to late 2000 - 2002...

...

Vanion.. I always did respect you, and you were always one of the best.. even out of VDS i'd argue. I'm sure you could of smoked some of the VDS members as well, I don't want to give names...
but I'd say the new technology had mixed results for different JK players and styles. It hurt some, helped some..
I never benefited from it.. as I was always poor lol, I really am not sure if it was the technology that accelerated many peoples JK playing ability or the cheating involved as well., I never accused anyone of cheating... and no one ever accused me of cheating.. least no one respectable, and that is the way I tried to play JK.. the old school way. (haha sorry for using hackneyed cliches)
I do have DSL now, and I think if I would of had it back then, my game would of been a notch or 2 higher.. but.. that's just me.

...

btw, i guess my hopefully the last post, wasn't the last post.. but nor was my last game of JK my last game of JK.
...

one final question who was Prince_Gigas, that became Gigas_VDS.. my mind is blank on who he was,. and if he was any good.
...
good day all

This is in refference to VDS being the best =)
I Remember when Soul Kia and I started MaD.VDS thought they were the best until 2 MaD members beat 2 VDS members.I Thought it was funny =)
If I remember it was Tyb and Van against Lifeform and I.It was a close game,but we did win.Later on I Joined VDS goes to show life for you =).But VDS may have been the best "overall" for a time period.But there were people who weren't in VDS Who were better.They may have been in it at one point or another.I'm not saying I was "elite" or that Lifeform was "elite" back in MaD.But I'm glorifying myself but I think I Can.I was better then alot of people when I actually really got into JK.People in many clans thought they were good and ran their mouth.But I ran my mouth and you know what,I rarely lost.I still believe clans who were "fad" or "ladder" clans were great because you know what,They generally had the great people in them.And normally a few from a Pervious clan would start a new one with other "elite" people and over and over.This happened many times with clans I joined durning my ladder days.
Yack...
Prince wasn't elite man.I remember when Soul,Hex and I and a few others joined it was Prince_lnamel people,You know what,if I remember we all left like a week later.We all did it because we had nothing better to do.I was nothing as BisoN compared to when I actually got really well known and "elite" And shit as NoVaCaiNe.I won alot of tournies for a period of time.Hell,I even aliased a tourney and beat a few VDS members as IgneouS.If I remember I beat Zod in the final like 3-1.And a week after that tourney I was told to tryout for VDS.I made it within a few days.This topic could go on forever comparing Generations of JK nf sabs.I played threw alot of them.I went threw 3 computers in my JK time.And you know what,My style evolved into what I play now for the majority.I can play pretty much any style from any point in JK history because I was around for most of it.I may have sucked ass when the "oldschoolers" were "elite" but I did play them.But I do believe that the vast majority of NF sabs "elites" came out after that generation.I think people got alot better in general at this game then the Generation of Before.Thats just my opinion.

hehe.. ya nova, when you were good at JK you were good.. but when you were bad you were badd lol.. this was prob one of ur bad moments Sept. 30th, 2000:

I got to be the same way though,.. I didn't really try unless it was someone worth tryin against.. in FFA's.. I'd just run around swingin with one hand while eatin with another.. quite interesting..
Lifeform was in Prince too for quite awhlie if you recall nova,. I didn't think of him as too great myself, but eh maybe i underestimated the tike:
June 3, 2001:
...
Prince was the same way as you and Soul in MaD,. we'd think we were better when we'd beat VDS in a game.. it was a bitter sweet rivalry.

I think my style was always defensive. but it did adapt with what was current out there. originally it was more straight forward defensiveness as all I could do with joystick, which I really wasn't bad with.. then I changed to more randomness with the mouse.

I should of never let you guys |___| join Prince, but I guess it was a good fad for a little while, ,. as you guys did a hundred other Fad clans.

"Elite" is a very undefinable term in general. There were many times when I thought Prince was elite,. even superior.. to most.. and we were to most.. just not to those who chose to look down on other people and characterize others as not elite... that's just the newbies opinion there so I figured I'd state it, for the newbie that dont speak up cause they are too shy lol.

You can't disagree however Prince got better with time, a heck of a lot from the early days...Elite define it how you may I believe we were Elite when I stopped playing JK... it was a constant project.. and by 2002 I'm pretty sure it was a success... without it JK wouldn't be the same.
(not to discredit any other clans)