What is the best sabers clan of ALL TIME?

.. i dono wodz 🙂 if I get the hang of my DSL.. and timing with no lag
,. and if I would of played you (I don't even recall playing you) back in the day,. (especially 2001 - 2002) I would of offered a good game...I was arguably still pretty dang good in 2000..

I do recall Kain and Macleod and NerfHerder...
out of the bunch I can't call any specific games with any of them. :-

KoHv was a wannabe Top Clan.. I recall the first top 20 ladder game I ever played was against Nemesis.. and he tried recruiting me.. that was possibly the 3rd ever full version JK game I played... I did fairly well against him for having no clue who he was.. but nevertheless he shouldn't of tried recruiting me a no name at that time newbie.
There were only a few other Kohv that were worth 2 cents, and they dissapeared before I even committed to trying to become a decent saberist over a gunner or FF player.

rK you bitch I'll play ya =)
ME and my new Comp(Bought a new 3d card too smokes the shit out of my old one hehe).
Back to this post.If I remember Correctly I was in the 2nd Gen of KHS.When it was Judge and Kain as the leaders.I have a General idea as to who was in it the first Generation.But anyone know the offical list?Wodz I'm guessing you do.
When It was with me,It was Judge,Verbatim and I.Then Soul,Kia joined.Then Genesis joined.Then It was disbanned.Then Soul,Kia and I started MaD.But back to this post.I still think KHS was pretty good,even the 2nd Gen was with all well known people.To this day I still don't think Soul hacked.I beat him,He beat me.I beat Kia he beat me.But I guess he was caught so that doesn't really count hehe.JCS was good I remember when I was pretty well known I played someone in some addon level and he said I should join JCS.But that was way before I knew what the fuck a clan was hehe =).
rK should be top 5 for saberists.PRobably one of the best I ever played.Always a good game when We played.

i feel stupid for askin but who was rK and all his names? haha rK im sure you can best answer that question.. I'm sure i'd know if you mentioned enough..

yack - yes, im referring to different leaders as a start of a generation, and yes, the generations (players who were in each gen) overlap each other a bit 🙂

nova - I was in MaD with you guys. I don't have a gen breakdown of KHS

KHS Roster : JudgmentDay, KaiN, ChosenOne, Mask, Trinity, Nemesis, Espresso, DemonLoki, Florence, Crucifier, NoVaCaiNe, SoulReaPer, UnFaDeAbLe, Bartolo, MacLeod

Wodz my man... "The only "huge name" people I have lost to are Seph, Nem, and Legacy". Dare I mention that I beat every single one of them as well as you. My hax pwnzord 😛

As for Nem... proven hacker. He was busted when I had a 0x8 god detector about 3 months before it went public on numerous ocasions. Also, when I used a 0x8 disable, he died within about 10 seconds each time. He later got busted with having over 100 health. Gotta love those haxorz! As a form of revenge, Nem took it upon himself to put Sub7 onto my mates PC (Oxide) and sat there and watched him have very personal conversations with his girlfriend, got his credit card information, etc, etc. Absolute fucking cock muncher.

Anywho, I really have to disagree with some of the things that youve said Wodz. Sorry mate, but your talking out of your backside.

"With respect to the newer clans, albeit that some of the clans had some decent members, SubZero of VDS was the only VDS member who actually had a good career before joining."

I had beaten every single member in the top 20 on Cases ladder BEFORE I even joined Prince. If you recall, you had to report your own losses on Cases and unless you were `in the boys club` so to speak, the looser would never report the loss. It was pointelss to compete. That and the fact that half the ladder were `proven` to cheat made it an utter joke.

However, this is my main point of contention...

"Lag is lag, 14.4 modem or a T-3, the best players could time lag very well. Ask any old schooler if the "elites" jerked their mouses around like faggots (dr00me) or caused their pings to drop on purpose. Place any of these clans on the list during any time of their existence against of other JK clans in history and the battles would be very deceisive. "

Now, its been a very long time since I looked fully at JKs net code, so you will have to forgive me if I am a little rusty. However, JKs netcode was written for a 28.8 modem but it happily scaled to 56k. The TCP stack and transportation stuff which JK used was a custom made by the games developers becasue this was before the days of letting Microsoft do all the work for you. Based on the fact that the multiplayer aspect of JK was designed to be a client -> client/server rather than a client, client, client-->server setup as we use today, the games developers put in various pointers and flags within their TCP stack. The purpose of these pointers was to effectivly `fake` lag on the server side (as in JK lets not forget that the server is also a client). This `fake` lag was not put in for guns becasue the maths behind how the bullets worked was very simple (calculate the point at which the bullet lands, plot a path, bullet follows that path). However, sabers were not worked out in this way, rather they were worked out based on a probability calculation. A direct hit was not necercerily a direct hit, it worked out the position of the opposing player, the position of the attacking saber and then plotted the attack arc of this saber. However, due to the blocking feature of the saber, it used a probability method to block it when playing in a TCP environment. The game would work out the arc of the saber attack - presumably based on some simple maths to calculate the radius of the circle which the length of the saber blade dictated - hence why even a tiny extendo made a hige difference. It would then plot where the oponent was and where he was moving / what his current direction was. It would then compare this to where the saber arc was. However, the entire arc of the saber was not the active `hit zone` at any given point in time, the only `hit zone` was the blade. The purpose of the `fake lag` pointers in the TCP stack was to help the saber hit calculations work out if the players predicted position was in the correct point of the `hit zone` in the calculated arc at any given point in time. However, when the ping was >0 (ie, when your online), it had to predict that `hit zone` - this prediction was entirely handled by the `fake lag` (or slower processing bits) of data in the TCP stack. The net effect of speeding up your connection was that the purpose of these pointers in the stack became pointless. However, as the developers couldnt predict 512k+ connection speeds, there was nothing in the code to remove these pointers on a faster connection.

The net effect of this was that when you were on a super fast connection, the TCP stack that JK used would hold in its TCP stack but not actually process information relating to where the player was. It would process it mabye a third of a second after it arrived in the stack (to stop the host having a major advantage). However, as your on a superfast connection, that third of a second is more than enough time to get your arse out of the hit radius and get to saftey.

Bascially, the client would send its information (where the player is, what his attack radius of the saber is, etc) to the server. However, the server wouldnt process it as soon as it was recived. This was a built in mechanism to stop the server (as it wasnt dedicated) having a huge advantage. It worked great in the modem world, but in the broardband world this TOTALLY changed the hit processing of the game and made the game TOTALLY different to play.

Based on that, it COMPLETLY AND TOTALLY changed the way that you played JK on broardband. The games code couldnt keep up, so the player had to change their style accordingly.

I dont mind you telling me that my views are wrong on who the best saber clan is or who was the best saberist, I dont care if you say I was s$%t and blah blah blah. However, the fact that broardband DID change JK is undisputable from a technical perspective. The games netcode couldnt stand upto it. I wrote a second year Masters Degree paper on it with about 75 hours of resurch and lots of packet sniffers and network analysers on this subject. Hell, I can probably find the paper if you want it. (I figure if your doing a masters you may as well do it about something you know / care about).

Please dont say 14.4 was no different to 512k. Its fair to say that 14.4 was the same as 56k, but no way in hell is 56k even close to 512k. Ever notice that on broardband its harder to win if you host... thats why, thats also why I never `ever` hosted a game 😉

Thats also why its practically impossible to compare anyone from the IRN etc era to the VDS etc era. It was no logner the same game. Sure, it looked the same, but the hit calculations were so different it was completly different to play. This might explaine why so many old school players got their arses handed to them when they made come backs. I wish I still had my screen shots, I have pics of me beating just about every single player 3-0 or 3-1. It wasnt becasuse I was a great player, it was because I knew HOW the game worked so could easily bash just about anyone. That slow processing stuff in JKs netcode made it 100% possible to give the player the ability to allmost choose what shots did and what did not hit them. Fact.

As for my vote, Id say IRN was unquestionably the most skilled overall JK clan of all time.

EnG

PS - Wodz, are you the origonal Wodz or the fake Wodz from 2000`ish?

wtf for some reason it put a secnod post up even though i didnt make one and now i gotta edit it and put this bs. lalalal. gg. hax.

Eng, first off let me start off by saying that you are a complete nerd..

I think there was some confusion regarding what I was attempting to say regarding lag. My comments were indicating that in 1997 players used connections ranging from 14.4 to T-3 lines. New schoolers seem to have this perception that fast connections did not exist (at all) back in the day and everyone used extremely slow dialup connections. With this point they say that since everyone played on such slow connections and everyone today plays on faster connections, they would undoubtedly defeat the "elites" of yesteryear. Do you see how stupid their comments sound? I hear them constantly as excuses to brush off the accomplishments and reputations of elite players that they have never played nor seen before.

I personally consider you to be the best player of VDS, however, I was stating that SubZero was the only member with a considerably reputable career (SyKoTiC). If you did indeed beat Nem, Seph, Legacy I wonder in which years those were? Nem and Seph more or less stopped competing in the start of 2000 and Legacy between late 99 and 2001. I also wonder at which timeframe you defeated everyone on cases? So not to be an asshole, but if you were so amazing in sabers, why does no one know you (aside from being a guy in prince and then a trend clan vds), did you use an alias and pwn everyone and then fade away into a new nick? I really don't know your history, so it's interesting to me 🙂

I disagree (for sabers) that broadband radically changed the face of the game. Two players, on high speed connections in either 1998 or 2005, there is no difference. The only thing that has changed is that almost everyone now uses a highspeed connection. So my argument is regarding high speed changes throughout the last 8 years. If JK cant understand anything above x, and x existed 8 years ago, then nothing has changed, right? I don't want to make this into a big thing though. Thanks for the great post.

Wodz

"New schoolers seem to have this perception that fast connections did not exist (at all) back in the day and everyone used extremely slow dialup connections"

Yes, I am suggesting that when the game was released and in the hight of the IRN etc period, 95% of players would have been on modems. In 1997 0.14% (Gartner) of home internet connections were broardband. The technology simply did not exist in the home when the game was released. By 1999 that figure had risen to around 10% (Gartner again). Dont give me this bull crap that JK players has $5000 per quater T3 lines running into their homes, and dont try to claim that most people played from the office. There may have been a select few lucky individuals who could steal university / collage leased lines, but this would have been a huge minority. The oldschool DID all play on modems, the newschool pretty much all played on broardband, its a fact mate. Obviously there was a transition period, but as most JKers were hardcore gamers, the transition was remarkably fast as people orderd broardband as soon as it became avalable in their area. Within a space of about 6 months the JK community (and any other gaming community of the time) went from aroud 5% broardband / 95% modem to 50 / 50 and within 12 months was more like 85% broardband and only 15% modem. It happend that quickly across the entire gaming industry and its ridiculous to claime otherwise.

"Do you see how stupid their comments sound?"

No, not atall. Not when at the time the game was in its prime 0.14% of homes online were connecting above 56k at best. Its laughable to suggest otherwise. Sorry mate, but if you belive otherwise then history has proven you to be wrong 🙁 As for how it effected the way that you played JK, Im sure my previous post gives an idea into why. As I said, if you really want to see it I have my old paper on cd somewhere. On this matter, I am 100% factually correct. Sorry mate, but its a fact. History has proven the timescale of the broardband takeup and I recived a masters degree based on analysing the JK netcode - I dont like to bl0w my own trumpet, but in this instance Im correct.

Why did I fade away as you so put it... I wasnt aware that I did. You vanished before the broardband revolution time and returned about two years later and there was various debate as to if the Wodz who was logged onto zone was infact the real Wodz. I guess it would have been around 99-2000 that I was doing my thing although Im not sure on dates... ummm the best players at the time were DangerSun, JudgementDay, Seph for nf sabers and JZA was generally regarded as the daddy of FF, mabye that will help you tell me when I played cos I have no idea lol! Why didnt I ever do much in the ladder, well, I couldnt stand the attitude of the ladder room. The attitude of those guys was laughable, the average age was 15 and it was like a hormonal e-p3nis contest in there, utter waste of time. I generally played them in tourneys rather than ladder and won every tourney I ever enterd with the exception of two (not a bad record). However, I (like many others, Van, Hex, Gen, etc) made little or no effort to become one of the `ladder room crew` becasue it was a waste of time. You had to chat wh0re for three hours just to get a match and then argue and report the guy for not reporting after you based him. It was full of cheats etc, it was no fun. Alot of the more mature JK players never appeared on the ladder becasue it was only fun if you wanted to compare your e-p3nis to others. I was in my late teens / early 20s and I didnt want to play with a bunch of 14 year olds. I also never liked to chat wh0re for hours on end and threfore my name wasnt everywhere - I just played, beat people (or lost) and enjoyed it. I didnt beat `everyone`, but I beat the vast majority. I never managed to beat DangerSun or Eugenus for example. Also, why would people have heard of me... this forum is not exactly populated and I never made an effort to have my name known 🙂

Just like to clear something up, I'm pretty sure eng did have a pretty good career before joining vds aswell, but alot of the others didnt get well known til they joined, like hexen for example. And whats that comment of you saying eng was the best alltime vds wodz? Its impossible to even compare vds members to each other as we were all in the same pool and all dominated the zone at one point or another.
Eng was in VDS before I joined and as I recall he was pretty much their main man, then it was van, then I joined and had my reign, then handed it to hexen, and then zodiac.
And I do respect englands opinion on lag and anything else computer/jk related basically because he is a graduate from a top uni course and as we all know has done tonnes of research in programming.
Wodz I dont know about you being regarded as the best ever either, in all the lists I see posted, your name never comes up there, if I were to pick a top five of all time it would have to be the best five ranging over a five year period. Not five players who all played at the same time in history. Also alot of the time some of these players are more well known based on pure reputation, or ladder stats (and cmon, we know alot of people cheated on cases). Legacy I really dont think would go in the top five saberists of all time, I was always a little better than him from what I remember, and I dont think im the best of all time.

But then theres another way to do it, you can say ok lets pick a top 20 "pool" of the best saberists over the whole history of jk etc.. Maybe that way then everyones happy.

Anyway rather than post my top five or whatever I think i'd be more useful to just discredit idiotic posts like "OH DARKLORD_JERECX3234244 WAS THE BEST EVER". haha.

Anyway, on this BOARD right now of people ive actually played at some time, the only three I can remember are england, rk/mask, and phelan.

Yo ho ho EnG...I'd actually like to read that paper hehe.I don't know why.But I Think it would be quite neat to have a peak at it.
Sub you fucknut....I played you too retard =)

I'm a CS minor ,.. was going to be a CS major,. but the vast amount of information that was out there that I didn't know was daunting.. So now I'm a mathematics major.. and an education major.. hopefully will be teaching other people in another 2 years..
... haha i had to say that just to prove I'm not a JK burn out.

Anyhow,. from what i know about JK netcode,. all the research that England has done sounds credible. I'll just argue based on my personal experience.. I didn't get broadband till was long done playing JK. Unlike Wodz who skipped out on a generation of JK, and England who got broadband.. I was one of the few that could testify what it was like to play throughout the whole entire transition to broadband.
Without broadband.. I managed to compete with all generations of JK players.. I really enjoyed playing those on broadband cause their lag for once was predictable..
(at least half the time I got hit in JK it was the lags fault.. it would cause a player to disappear for a fraction of a second and ghost into me,. course I suppose I got about 10% of my hits this way too pure luck) I think it hurt me a lot more than helped me however. )

Why was I able to compete with people on broadband I dono!.. Maybe
being exposed to it slowly over the years allowed me to adjust my JK play to the different lag.
I never got dominated by any VDS that was on broadband... vs. my 56k
I won't brag I beat down everyone in duels but.. for being on a 56k during the time.. but I held my ground.

Finally by the time I stopped playing JK in late 2002 to early 2003..
I'd still say it was a 50/50 56k vs. broadband connection. The stats you are probally looking at England are overall %'s.. JK was an old game.. a lot of the people that stil played JK were on crappy connections.. Their crappy connections couldn't run any new current games very well.
...

Over Christmas break I played about 12 games on my Broadband old school P2 computer 32 meg 3d card. After probally a dozen games of JK, I'll arguably say I had the hang of it,. and probally had a 30% skill increase in JK. This is evident from playing Eugenius, MortheHap, and a few other old school Jker's.. they could of been bloody rusty too.. but I wasn't that unrusted myself. I pulled a 4 to 0 on Eug before he killed me. I played a teams game with Eug and Morthe vs Prince_DashRem and I.. once again.. I'll say I arguably did a lot better than I would have in the past.. 18 kills and around 6 deaths in a game to 30.
I recently got a new P4 computer in which I attempted to play JK on last weekend... it is a bit different.. but I'll adjust.. I think for the better.

I'll agree with England on the ladder statement..
I rarely played ladder once I realized the attitude of Nemesis / Soul and countless others... back when ladder was very well played 1999.. I made it a goal to get to the top 20.. which I did with a good bit of tooth pulling to get the "Elite" people to play me in games being a real no named guy.

...
hehe unlike you Eng beating Eugenius wasn't a prob for me :)..
I could to coin a phrase I used a lot "HALF" him.. I could do this
by 2000 to most of the top 20 still around in ladder. by "HALF" him..
I mean get twice as many points as they got on me.. in most cases I'd beat people 3 to 1.5 that were top 20 players
In fact, Eugenius joined Prince.. I think a few months before you did England,. since I could beat him, I convinced him to join lol.
He didn't stay in Prince for more than a month though..
...
I have no true recollections of playing Dangersun.. I almost recall playing him back in the Demo... if anyone can recall his origin let me know.
The person I can recall having the most trouble beatin at least early 2000 when I was still making a name for myself was JudgementDay because our styles were very similiar. I can't recall exact scores or anything.
...

Finally.. EX was a decent Middle of the road clan that England was in before Prince.. Genesis and Romeo and a few others were decent saberists in it. When he was in Prince, it was a significant step in his JK career... I struggled significantly beating "judge"
...

AND TRULY FINALY WHO IS RK haha? NO one answered my question

http://p075.ezboard.com/fvirtuosidesabl ... D=21.topic
Good poll.., bad comments lol just diggin through some JK history

Wodz your comments made here a long time are purely bull crap haha.. i just wanted to point them out to you.. As I stumble across bits of history and the way it was interpretted..

First,. if you can't call me "Elite" at JK,. then ... You've never played me back in my prime... and you might have to broaden the definition of elite to the top saberist in the game.. I'd argue I was at least in the top 10. I won't argue however.. hahaha too much:
Wodz you had no basis on which to judge me accept maybe your little run in with me in 1999... even then I was arguably in the upper 10% of saberists... Maybe my style in 1999 was Badd.. dats because I had a joystick I was too slow to do anything fancy so I played the best with what I had...and it worked. What you saw me playing you recently is me playing for the first month on broadband.. with the first game of JK on a new computer lol? Yack probally 75% strength tops.

Teams in JK took a lot more skill than it looked like.. since it was primarily 2 simultaneous duels.. a lot more pressure was put on you to score more .. faster to not let your teamate down. AND the most important part.. not to die. In teams I was usually not the one who had the most points at the end.. but the one with the fewest deaths. As long as my team won that is all that mattered to me... Whoever this "Copyrite, whom I suspect to be nomad.. on this board is.. made completely bogus facts up"... If that copyrite = NEO... *copyrite was one of Neo's alliases in Prince as well as Tyco*... then maybe his statements hold some value, but a True newbie would say I'm better than yackman cause i got more points than him at teams when he was on my team..
Finally in that quote Orgazmo and Saint claimed to be the best NF sabers teams ever... weren't they Yo_Smack and Yo_Black ? if not well whoever the YO's were they were fairly decent but England and I beat em 2v2 back in the day:

Finally... Kain, Ikikuras whatever you wana call him.. people claim he was the most well known one of the best middle era JK Players.. How the heck did I hear so little about him? I recall playing Ikikuras once.. and he was fairly good.,but eh 🙂 I wish i had the screen still...Macleod was a good challenge as well people don't talk about him as much as they should.

shoot i gotta do my homework lol. or just sleep.. ill just sleep Ill do it tommorrow.

omg lol... i swear, people will argue about JK for another 50 years.

omg lol... i swear, people will argue about JK for another 50 years.

Hell yeah! The difference now is that its all in good spirit. Its kinda fun talking about the goold old days.

And Yack, of corse you were farmous... you lead the biggest JK clan over pretty much the entire history of the zone and everyone liked you 🙂

Yackman

all I know about the infamous Mask(rk) 😀 is that he was the don in Jk-ladder for a good time, but if you didnt go in the ladder rooms then you prolly wouldnt of come across him, he is my hero for bitch slapping ck of #1 =) lol j/k. Alised under the name rancho_kid a good few times untill mag busted his ip, better known under Mask_KHS, Mask_KTL/GreatEliteMask and a bunch of others =) lol, but disliked by many, for his ego/attitude and.. at one point highly surspected/gen hacks...I seem to remember he was untouchable for a good 6 months lol, then poof he vanished for years. i would put him in top 8 saberists when he wasnt playing shady games.
rk knows i luv him really. On a side note, was it just me you had off zf.. since in all the years i knew you, not once were you visble on it lolz :/ get icq again.. i saw u on it alot about a year back.. but didnt talk, ill play ya.